SJ: No. it really was. We had a great editorial staff, we had the proper budget, we had the support. We got to work with the editors and figure out how to tell these stories in a really rich way. We got to work with everyone in the creative community. Artists, illustrators, you name it. We got to leverage their talent to help support this important editorial work we were doing. So I got hooked on that problem-solving through design. I think of a place like Seed, when you’re talking about the microbiome, and it’s this impossible-to-visualize thing, but it’s also connected to literally everything. Those go hand-in-hand. And then when you work for one start-up, another one sees you. Maybe I’ve carved out too small of a niche with 4-letter start-ups in Venice. But it’s cool. They’re companies that are dedicated to being visually interesting in order to grab people’s attention, and to be worth people’s attention. But they also want to be totally honest and educate you and tell a deeper story at the same time.

MW: I think what Cove is doing on Instagram is really interesting. You’re really turning that space into a newsfeed. And devoting yourselves to informing your audience about what’s going on. Was that a push from you, or was it already there?

SJ: They knew before I got on board that the most powerful advocates on social for us, and the most powerful advocates as consumers and out in the world, are people who are highly educated. Highly educated about the subject matter that we’re dealing with when we talk about what’s happening with waste, what’s happening with plastic, with plastic-alternatives. I really wanted it to be something that people felt like had substance. And it does, but I wanted to communicate that through our visual language. We’re really in this because we care about the environment and we care about change and we care about this problem we’ve created with this immense amount of plastic that the planet cannot handle. And that doesn’t start, or end, with us. It’s a big thing we’re apart of, and we want to support the other people doing work in that space. We want to ‘train’ our consumers not to just buy Cove, but to be more aware of their surroundings and the decisions they make.

MW: You’ve worked out a really good system for yourself where your 9-5 job is giving you the freedom to really run with Jam. Did you ever give yourself the permission to suck? There’s this real learning curve where you’re like: I don’t know anything, and I’m just going to stop trying to be the best at what I am doing and experiment with no risk.

SJ: A lot of this is somewhat new to me, in that, I spent a long time in my career just doing what I was doing and not thinking about it other than: This is a job, something better will come along. I’ll go through the motions and it’ll lead to the next best thing. And it really wasn’t working. I was just punching in. This gets into a sensitive area within design, where people who are attracted to it, are probably toxic in their critique of themselves. And I know I’ve experienced this. I don’t think it was until I started going to therapy, and started to deal with this separation of my identity from my identity as a designer. And what your work says about you and how you stack up on Instagram.

MW: For sure. At the root of it is taste, so if my taste isn’t good, what does that say about me?

SJ: It’s so easy to get sucked into what everyone else is doing, your perception of everyone else’s work, their life, their creative output. And just feel like shit. And be paralyzed by it too. That was something really hard for me. I had gotten this job in Boston at MIT that I loved. I finally was doing work that I was proud of, after being in a weird spot for a while. Then I moved back to D.C. because of a relationship, and I felt like it was all ripped away from me. I had been on this high where I was creating work I was so proud of, and then I was at a job that wasn’t giving me anything. Suddenly, I was no longer tied into a creative community because I wasn't commissioning people. I wasn’t around other creative people who I was feeding off of or was excited by. I was feeling so shitty about things. And that’s when I got into therapy and started getting into what’s wrong with me. When you start to look at it and talk about it with people, you start to realize how fine you are, and how good your life is. It was such petty bullshit, it’s insane. And putting it in perspective. I was able to let go of it a little bit. But understanding that if I don’t do work that I want, if I’m not creating the work I want to see, who’s fault is that? Even now, I’m sure you guys feel and talk about it, maybe not if you’re lucky, but understanding what it’s all worth and what you’re doing. You look at the best stuff because you probably have great taste, and you start to measure yourself, and it’s just not a healthy habit.

MW: It’s always an uphill battle. We’ve gotten to the point where it’s this system. At the root of every decision is the question: Is this getting us to where we want to be? What are we getting when we get there? Is it all worth it?

SJ: And it’s like, what do you even want? Do you want to be recognized? Great, you get recognized and you still feel the same.

MW: We all have this point where you get to work with your dream client. So you work with them once or twice, and then an hour after working with them you ask yourself: Why don’t I feel better about this than I do? Not to say that that kind of work isn’t great, but at the end of the day it just isn’t as important because it’s not our own. We’ll do client work and do these great projects that we’re really passionate about, but what gets us most excited is stuff like this. This conversation, getting to sit down with people we look up to. It feels a lot more rewarding.

SJ: Yeah, totally. To be able to create a connection through a t-shirt that leads to a conversation like we’re having is way better. I think it’s what everyone wants. It’s not a million followers on Instagram or Nike emailing you, as much as we might think that’s what it’s about. But I’ve also realized, for me, I’ve developed some sort of practice. I’ve practiced this for over a decade now and have developed some decent muscles. I don’t even care about showing them off, I just like working them, you know? I go home and I do work after work because when I’m in it and that moment strikes where you landed on something that feels like a breakthrough, or even the feeling of accomplishment. I’m addicted to that feeling.

MW: I see people, colleagues of ours, who are making insane work, and they’re like 23 or 24. And that’s terrifying because I’m not doing that. But at the same time, I don’t want to rush into things and spend the next 30 years wondering: Now what? Now, who do I flex for?

SJ: Yeah I mean, my concerns have always been geared towards: Am I going to be able to produce good work? Am I going to be able to produce work that I’m proud of? And I've gotten to a point in my life where I’m able to do that without depending on other people as much. And I find that really exciting. I’m totally honored and humbled by people coming to me to ask for anything, so I almost never say no, even when maybe I should. But I think a lot of it comes down to me liking being in practice. I like feeling like I’m exercising these graphic design skills I’ve developed. I like feeling like I’m using my brain in that specific way. And I know that by doing some random project that I make no money from, that I don’t get to put on my portfolio, that I’m learning something that could help me out somewhere else down the road. And sometimes that is enough. Don’t get me wrong. I have my freakouts. But I can’t say no because at my core I like doing it, and maybe I’m a little scared that people will stop asking at the same time. And I’m stuck in that.

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